The Trouble With New York's Hybrid Taxi Plan
New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg ordered all New York City's taxi companies to convert to all-hybrid cars within five years. Sounds like a great idea. Here's the problem. Some hybrids, like those from Honda, kick into electric mode during acceleration, then gas mode while cruising -- which will save gas for lead-footed New York cab drivers. Other hybrids, however -- most conspicuously Toyotas (including the popular Prius) -- kick into gas mode during acceleration. You can get over 50 mpg, but only if you accellerate slowly. That means cabbies driving Priuses and others using the Toyota-style system won't really see huge improvements in gas mileage or big cuts in pollutio unless they drive like aging hippies in Marin County, which ISN'T BLOODY LIKELY.
12:58 PM * PERMALINK * 17 comments
Comments:
I think the only way you'd get 50MPG with a Prius is if you drive downhill ONLY. (I've had one for 18 months and never got about 43MPG).
I think the NYC plan is great from an emissions standpoint, however. 13,000 cars pumping out less crud is all good.
Actually, my wife's happy because her 2003 Prius just kicked up to 50mpg since she's started a more highway-oriented commute.
I'm still waiting for the news reports a few years from now about the crisis of disposing of all those hybrid batteries, like the mercury issues with compact fluorescents. No matter how well-intentioned anything people do is wrong to some environmental group and "we're all gonna die!" stories get a lot of press...
There are chinks in the plan, so do you propose New York cabbies do nothing?
***** I think the only way you'd get 50MPG with a Prius is if you drive downhill ONLY. ****
Hmmm. I always get better than 50 mpg in my Prius -- sometimes over 55. -Mike
**** There are chinks in the plan, so do you propose New York cabbies do nothing? *****
No, I would propose that they winnow the list of acceptable cars down to only those that use the electric motor for accelleration.
Mike
How about the fact that hybrids such as the Prius over the lifetime of the car is actually just about the worst cars for the envronment?
http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/
Hybrids are a scam, you do not recover the cost of the car ever after 10 years of ownership vs the fuel savings. And the Prius only gets about 45 MPG. Anyone who claims otherwise is either strictly driving only on highways or does not know how to calculate their MPG. Building a Prius does more environmental damage than a Hummer.
Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage:
http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188
EPA Lowers Prius Mileage Estimate (Consumer Affairs):
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/12/priius_epa.html
New versus old EPA mpg (Consumer Reports):
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2007/02/new_versus_old_.html
The costly secrets of hybrid cars:
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveonaCar/TheCostlySecretsOfHybridCars.aspx
Savings at Pump Don't Offset Higher Purchase Price (Consumer Affairs):
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/03/cr_hybrids.html
Hybrid cars and the vanishing tax credit (Consumer Reports):
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2007/03/hybrid_cars_and.html
Andrew and anonymous, please don't refer to the CNW Marketing Dust to Dust study and expect to get any respect. It's a flawed study with so many holes in it you can't be taken seriously when you quote it.
Second, the EPA is lowering its estimates on all cars for 2008 by about 15% average. That means the Prius is going down farther than any other car because it has farther to fall than any other car.
As for the msn article on the costly secrets. Yes, if you buy a car built for performance, not fuel economy, you will not save money on fuel. How obvious is that?
According to the latest study, you will save money in the long run if you buy a hybrid. It can take five years or more, but it will happen. For instance, if you bought a Prius instead of a Camry, it could take as little as a year and a half.
As for the way the tax credit was set up, talk to your representative. Also, the AMT was set up for a reason, to keep people from finding all of the loopholes to jump through.
Eric: you can get better than 43 mpg. Look for articles on hypermiling for extreme examples. It's just a matter of changing your driving habits. And no, you don't have to drive downhill all the time or accelerate like your grandmother.
Mike: They limit the vehicles based on mpg, not just by hybrid engine.
***** And the Prius only gets about 45 MPG. Anyone who claims otherwise is either strictly driving only on highways or does not know how to calculate their MPG. *****
What in the hell are you talking about?
The Prius gets better gas mileage in the "city" -- during constant stops and accelleration -- than on the "highway" -- where the driver has less control over mileage.
The Prius has a giant screen on the dashboard that constantly shows mileage. Right now, the Prius in my driveway is at 52 mpg since I last got gas (which was a loooong time ago).
And, obviously, the car pays for itself. You save a *fortune* on gas. Also: It's the most reliable car I've ever owned by far.
Mike
You, Mike, seem to have lots of data surrounding you, but I'm still pretty sure that UK cars annhilate US cars in miles per gallon. Well, miles per litre, because we use the metric system. You know, the one that makes sense.
=P
Jack, I'm not sure if you were referring to me or not (there are a lot of Mikes here), but I would point out that UK cars are the same as US cars. The difference is the size of the cars you buy and the use of diesel.
NYC cabs all utilize a standard, powerful V-8 engine as the power plant of their Crown Victoria. Parts are cheap for this vehicle, keeping maintenance costs low. However, as someone who has longstanding interest in gas mileage, as well as a running conversation with a number of cabbies over the last six years (I am a NYC resident), their average mileage is around 17 miles per gallon.
Long Island City (specifically, the part along Queens Blvd) has some of the most polluted air in the United States. It is also the exact same route cabs drive continually throughout the day, back and forth to their stations. The use of Ultra-low emission vehicles in an already polluted city is a welcome change. Trashing the idea leads only to potential inaction, not a resolution of the problem.
I will cede the argument to you Mike (I am a fan of your blog), that NYC cabbies have a heavy foot. Regardless of this objection, the WORST mileage I have witnessed in a Prius, with ultra-aggressive driving, was 34 mpg. This still represents a 100% increase in fuel efficiency, not to mention a 50% reduction in the cab driver's fuel costs per shift. (note: NYC fares rose significantly three years ago due to the increase in gas prices).
Additionally, I'd like to clear up some misconceptions. First, its easy (and kind of fun) to trash the Prius. The owners of them can be a slightly smug and preachy, but it is still a well built car, and auto makers should have been aiming for this sort of efficiency long ago.
The Prius uses electric power during acceleration, because the electric motors have greater torque. The engine kicks in at higher speeds, where it is more efficient, or during the most aggressive style of driving (again, no matter what you argue, it still yields vastly superior mileage with its 1.5 liter engine to the nearly 5-liter Ford). Thus, city driving in a Prius still brings exceptional fuel & pollution savings over the old Ford.
Additionally, I test drove both of the Honda Hybrids you mentioned recently. Empirically speaking, the Toyota was a smoother ride, with better mileage. In the Honda's the engine ran the entire time. (it turns out the Honda Civic isn't a true Hybrid. Rather, it uses an "IMA" electric-assist engine to achieve greater gas mileage. The fuel efficiency still didn't stack up to the Prius).
Finally, for any of the naysayer’s "buying a hybrid won't save you money," folks- you are two years too late, and a dollar short- literally. The argument against the costs savings from reduced fuel consumption was based on $2 per gallon fuel prices, and 12,000 miles per year in driving. If you use our current $3 per gallon (a 50% increase in price- possibly close to $4 if we lose one another refinery or oil rig), and a more American driving amount of 15,000 miles per year, with a LOW average of 44 mpg in the Prius (and that is driving like an idiot), well... you can figure out your own math. (in other words folks, do the numbers yourself. Don't let the news tell you what to think).
Keep up the great Blog Mike. I respectfully believe you may be wrong on the NYC change to Hybrids being bad (any positive change is good), and hope that I might have changed your mind by presenting some new information in this forum.
Best regards,
~Nate
You can indeed get 50MPG if you use cruise control almost all the time, including at city speeds. The Prius's gas engine shuts off during deceleration and when the car is idling at a intersection which will reduce the pollution in traffic jam situations.
Let's just consider for a moment.. Let's imagine that a taxi drives 15000 miles a year (a very conservative estimate.. more likely 20000 or more)..., at 17 miles per gallon in city driving (probably a high estimate considering all the stop and go)... it would take 882.35 gallons of gas to power it.
If a taxi was a Toyota Prius, getting a very low, but possible 34 mpg, that would cut the fuel consumption in half. 441.175 gallons of gas. That would give you a fuel savings of 441.175 gallons a year.
At a fuel price of $2 a gallon, a driver would save $882.35. At $3, they would save $1323.52 a year. At $3.50 a gallon, they would save $1544.11 a yeah. If the price differential is $3000, then a driver would make more than his initial investment back in 2 years. Actually, a better way to think of it, is that a driver would make his money back in 30000 miles at $3.50 a gallon.
While the Crown Victoria is a car that's fairly easy to buy cheap and used parts for, I imagine, that it needs repairs often. The Toyota Prius is now one of the most reliable cars rated by Consumer reports. Clearly if the whole taxi fleet were Priuses, just like they are almost all like Crown Vics, the mechanics that maintain them would soon figure out to conduct most repairs on them as well. (Obviously with some training costs).
And finally, the Prius does one very important thing... It puts your fuel consumption at the forefront as one of the most important aspects of your driving. Once that is done, most people pay more attention to how they are driving, in order to maximize fuel economy. The problem with normal cars, is that most give you very little information, making it very hard to develop good driving habits. If drivers know how much gas they are wasting rushing to red lights, many of them might take it a little easier, keeping more money in their pockets.
The Mayor's plan is based on basic fuel economy numbers, not on specific engine technologies. Why is everyone talking about hybrids? The 2009 Jetta TDI gets 38mpg in the city (real world testing, not just EPA estimates) and meets Tier II / Bin 5 emissions requirements. That's *without* a trunk full of batteries. Furthermore, the diesel engine has the reputation for reliability that cab owners are looking for.
NYC Taxi Cabs drive 60,000+ miles per year. So talking the $3k savings calculated at 15k mileage its a 12K savings.
Article about two escapes going 175K over 2yrs.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/04/03/ford-escape-hybrid-taxis-top-175-000-miles/
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